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Ogedei Khan

Ogedei Khan



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Ogedei Khan (aka Ogodei) ruled the Mongol Empire from 1229 to 1241. He was the third son of Genghis Khan (r. 1206-1227), the empire's founder. Ogedei's accomplishments included creating a new capital at Karakorum, establishing a system of regional governance and taxation, and defeating the long-time enemy of the Mongols, the Jin state of northern China.

Ogedei Khan enjoyed many other military victories in Western Asia from Afghanistan to Georgia, and the great cities of the Bulgars and Rus were sacked as his armies swept ever further west and attacked Poland and Hungary. Just as the Mongols seemed about to sweep through Europe, the invaders returned home following news of the Great Khan's death of either a stroke or organ failure in December 1241, most likely brought on by one of the heavy drinking bouts for which he was infamous.

Early Life & Succession

Ogedei was born, c. 1186, the third son of Genghis Khan, the founder of the Mongol Empire. He had three brothers: Jochi, Chagatai (Chaghadai) and Tolui (Tului). Like them, Ogedei assisted his father on several military campaigns, notably against the Khwarazm Empire from 1219 to 1225. Before he died of natural causes in 1227, Genghis Khan had instructed that his empire be divided into four khanates with each of his sons ruling one of them (although Jochi would predecease his father in 1227). Ogedei was selected to rule above his siblings as the Great Khan or 'universal ruler', a position he was formally awarded in 1228 at the kurultai conference of Mongol tribal chiefs (which Ogedei at first refused but then accepted in 1229). Genghis, meanwhile, was buried in secret in the vicinity of the sacred mountain Burkan Kuldun, and Ogedei sacrificed 40 slave girls and 40 horses to accompany his father into the next life.

Ogedei was likeable & willing to take the advice of his more senior ministers & commanders, essential qualities in the complex web of Mongol clan politics.

Ogedei was a surprising choice for khan because he already had a reputation for often being drunk. He was chastised for his drinking by his brother Chagatai but, not being unaware of the problem, Ogedei did offer to have a supervisor check how much alcohol he drank and to limit the number of cups per day to a specified number. Ogedei then made sure he was always served his favourite tipple in very large cups. Neither had Ogedei shown any great particular promise as a military commander. He was, however, likeable and willing to take the advice of his more senior ministers and commanders, essential qualities in the complex web of Mongol clan politics. Most importantly of all, he was his father's choice and Genghis Khan was now already seen as a deified spirit whose word was law. Thus, Tolui, who had been acting as regent, handed over the reins of government to Ogedei and a new era of Mongol rule began.

Government Apparatus

Ogedei Khan had an immediate problem in the first years of his reign in that his state treasury was empty and his followers and armies needed booty to reward them for their loyalty and keep them together. One solution was for Ogedei to impose taxes on the peoples his father had conquered. This idea is traditionally credited to Yelu Chucai (1190-1244), a khitan who was one of Ogedei's senior ministers and who is credited with coining the maxim: 'you can conquer an empire on horseback, but you cannot govern it on horseback.' Chucai's role in government may have been exaggerated by ancient Chinese sources and, in any case, taxing rather than outright confiscation was hardly a new policy to better govern a territory.

Consequently, members of the imperial bodyguard (Kesikten) and ministers were charged with acting as regional governors (daruqachi) and supervising the local inspectors (often Muslim agents) who had to actually collect the tax. This plan was aided by the creation of local branches of government made up of a mix of officials and imperial clan leaders. The system was a success, even if it later led to abuses. Taxation and governance were made more efficient in 1234-6 when a census was conducted across northern China and by the parallel apparatus of jarquci, officials who checked that clans received the war booty due to them and who eventually became coordinators and administrators in other government business, too. With his bureaucracy in order and income stabilised, Ogedei was ready to embark on expanding his territory. There was one essential ingredient still missing from his empire, though; he still did not have a capital.

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Karakorum would be the first of the Mongol capitals that would later include Daidu (Beijing) & Xanadu.

Karakorum

The Mongol Empire urgently needed a capital city where revenue could be accumulated and some attempt at a centralised government could be made. In short, the nomadic Mongols needed to make themselves a lot more stationary and put down some permanent roots. Ogedei began this process by ordering the building of a walled capital in 1235. The place was to be Karakorum (aka Qaraqorum and today known as Harhorin) in the Orkhon Valley, 400 km southwest of the present capital of Mongolia, Ulaanbaatar. The city was not large, only 10,000 people at its height resided there, but it was cosmopolitan and would be the first of the Mongol capitals that would later include Daidu (Beijing) and Xanadu. Ogedei himself never lived at Karakorum, preferring instead to roam his empire and stay in the traditional camps of yurt (ger) tents. The khan did visit occasionally and even had a great silver drinking fountain set up in his palace there that served all manner of alcoholic beverages from spouts shaped into snakes and lions.

Karakorum, despite needing to have hundreds of cartloads of food shipped in to feed its population, became an important logistics centre and repository of the empire's resources. In addition, many merchants travelled there, encouraged by its location on the Silk Roads and the khan's generous prices for their goods. Consequently, the city soon boasted large and regular markets. In time, fine stone buildings were erected by followers of Taoism, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity.

Karakorum was not only connected to other parts of the empire by roads which were patrolled to make them safe from robbers but Ogedei also greatly extended the messenger system (the Yam) that spread across Mongolia and even developed a system of passports so that messengers could receive various entitlements at the many rest stations. The khan was responsible, too, for the innovation of protecting hundreds of wells with high walls so that regular water supply could aid the movement of armies and merchants across Asia.

Expanding the Empire

The Mongol armies under Genghis Khan had been tremendously successful but occupation had not been attempted in most of the conquered territories. For this reason, Ogedei needed to send troops back to extract tribute in such places as Persia, Afghanistan, and Siberia. The priority, though, remained their old foe the Jin state in northeast China, still ruled by the Jin Jurchen Dynasty. Ogedei and his brother Tolui both participated but the army was led in the field by the gifted general Subutai (aka Sube'etei, 1176-1248), known as one of the 'Four Hounds' of the khan. The Mongols attacked the Jin in 1230-1. Although successful, Tolui died during the war, but just how is not known for certain. The Jin capital of Kaifeng fell after a lengthy siege in 1233, and one final campaign in February 1234 brought about the suicide of the Jin emperor, Aizong (r. 1224-1234) and the total and final collapse of the Jin state.

Meanwhile, and not for the first time, Korea also faced Mongol armies on its lands from 1231. As a consequence, the Korean state of Goryeo was forced to move its capital to Ganghwa Island in 1232. While the ruling elite was safely ensconced on their island, the rest of the Goryeo population had to face six Mongol invasions over the next three decades until peace was finally made in 1258. With northern East Asia subdued, the Mongols were now in a position to raid southern China, then controlled by the Song Dynasty (960-1279). That particular prize would have to wait until the reign of Kublai Khan (r. 1260-1294) to fall into Mongol hands, though, as Ogedei turned his attention elsewhere.

On the western side of the Mongol Empire, campaigns were launched in Afghanistan and northern Iran throughout the 1230s, attacking the Khwarazmians following the return from exile of their troublesome leader Jalal al-Din. In 1235 northern Iraq was invaded. Victory followed victory, and the Mongol armies pushed into Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia in 1238, steadily wearing down the fortified towns of the region, sacking such cities as Tiflis (Tbilisi) and extracting tribute from local princes.

There was then a campaign, led once again by Subutai, which marched through Kazakhstan/Uzbekistan to attack Eastern Europe around the Volga river from 1236 to 1242. The army consisted of some 150,000 men and pushed northwards in five different divisions, eventually reaching as far as eastern Hungary and southern Poland and defeating the Bulgars and Rus along the way. Great cities like Kiev (1240), Krakow (1241), Buda and Pest (1241) were sacked and looted. Mongol scouts were then sent ahead of the army as far as Bohemia and Vienna. For the first time, the western world was presented with the horrifying sight of the seemingly unstoppable war-machine that was the Mongol hordes. Fortunately for Europe, in early 1242, the Mongol armies turned for home; they had heard news of Ogedei Khan's death and a successor now had to be chosen.

Death & Legacy

On 11 December 1241 Ogedei, having laid down the foundations for a governable empire that now spanned the whole of Asia, died at the age of 56, perhaps from a stroke or organ failure, although there were rumours, too, of poisoning. He was succeeded by his son Guyuk in 1246 after a brief stint as regent by Ogedei's wife Toregene. Ogedei's own choice for his successor was first his son Kochu, but when he died prematurely, he then chose Kochu's son Shiremun. This choice was ignored by the Mongol tribal leaders, perhaps because Ogedei's final years had seen him decline further and further into alcoholism and he no longer carried the demigod prestige his own father had enjoyed. As it turned out, Guyuk's reign as the third khan of the Mongol Empire would last a mere two years. Guyuk had never been a popular choice, and many nobles, whose loyalties were divided amongst Genghis Khan's descendants, disputed the decision, hence the delay in his nomination after Ogedei's death. It is likely Guyuk was poisoned by a rival.

After two more khans and two regents, the next big step forward for the empire came during the reign of Kublai Khan, the grandson of Genghis who conquered most of what remained of China from 1275 and so caused the collapse of the Song Dynasty in 1279. Kublai then proclaimed himself emperor of the new Yuan Dynasty in China. Over the next two decades, China would become entirely dominated by the Mongols. The Mongol Empire would then go on to more campaigns, including in the Middle East, Korea, and Japan with varying success but ultimately creating one of the largest empires ever seen.


What if Ögedei Khan lived for another 20 years?

Or there were other reasons. "Retreating in face of Bohemians because they didn't fancy their chances" is possible but seems. well, it doesn't have any stronger reasons to be truer than other reasons.

Elfwine

Bela escaped and had to be caught

Or there were other reasons. "Retreating in face of Bohemians because they didn't fancy their chances" is possible but seems. well, it doesn't have any stronger reasons to be truer than other reasons.

But the force that would have faced the Bohemians could have - if they were feeling they could do so - in a position to do so without hindering chasing Bela.

I'm not saying I'm certain, but I think it is worth bringing up rather than just dismissing as "no stronger reasons than other reasons".

I wouldn't want to face fifty thousand men with ten thousand (if memory serves on the numbers) even as a Mongol.

True. But the fact that they ended up with such number disparity mostly tells me they weren't planning on further operations immediately, otherwise they'd have concentrated more.

In any case, the Western Campaign is not really typical of them in general, that's why we keep having conversations about it (that and Eurocentrism).

Herzen's love-child

Tongera

I can understand the forests and plenty of sieges of castles being difficult for the Mongols.

Elfwine

True. But the fact that they ended up with such number disparity mostly tells me they weren't planning on further operations immediately, otherwise they'd have concentrated more.

In any case, the Western Campaign is not really typical of them in general, that's why we keep having conversations about it (that and Eurocentrism).

Well, that kind of indicates that the invasion of Hungary and such was a means to the end of Russia-and-the-steppe, IMO.

But yeah, the Western campaign comes off as a fluke.

IMO, there are two things that get in the way of a Mongol conquest:

Even if Europe is as valuable as the Rus princedoms (just for discussion's sake), that's not worth eighteen years campaigning.

There's no reason the Mongols will invest the effort they would have in somewhere more valuable, accordingly.

I can understand the forests and plenty of sieges of castles being difficult for the Mongols.

It's not that, it's just that they came with what was essentially a scouting force, but conducted full-scale operations using it, then abruptly said goodbye and left. It's not like they never saw forests and castles before. It's just that it really seems like a bit of an afterthought.

. except they did bring their finest general and lots of logistical assets, but not enough troops to finish things off. Why?

Securing the flanks of their Russian conquests, maybe? Anyway, not typical.

MarshalBraginsky

Herzen's love-child

It's not that, it's just that they came with what was essentially a scouting force, but conducted full-scale operations using it, then abruptly said goodbye and left. It's not like they never saw forests and castles before. It's just that it really seems like a bit of an afterthought.

. except they did bring their finest general and lots of logistical assets, but not enough troops to finish things off. Why?

Securing the flanks of their Russian conquests, maybe? Anyway, not typical.

Elfwine

Tongera

Herzen's love-child

That one's not that hard. Batu was preparing to fight his relatives, Berke actually fought his relatives. There were a few more probing expeditions after that but they didn't accomplish anything much. They never had the support of the entire empire afterwards.

I guess they really did give up on Hungary as a permanent conquest.

Elfwine

That one's not that hard. Batu was preparing to fight his relatives, Berke actually fought his relatives. There were a few more probing expeditions after that but they didn't accomplish anything much. They never had the support of the entire empire afterwards.

I guess they really did give up on Hungary as a permanent conquest.

Herzen's love-child

Tongera

MarshalBraginsky

If Batu lived for 10-20 years, it could potentially delay the first cultural contact between the Golden Horde and the Islamic world, but at the same time the fate of Sartaq would be left hanging. What is Batu Khan's religious stance? That could have been the deciding factor in which the Golden Horde would have taken if they were to choose their religion.

Another question: was there a chance for Jochi to survive a bit longer than Genghis? I'm just wondering what could have happened if Jochi went rouge and decided to conquer parts of Eurasia without his father's approval.


Human History In Brief

Mongol Empire emerged from the unification of Mongol Tribes in East Asia under leadership of Genghis Khan and was the one of the largest empire in history. Genghis Khan died in August 1227, during the fall of Yinchuan, which is the capital of Western Xia. The empire began to split due to wars over succession, as the grandchildren of Genghis Khan disputed whether the royal line should follow which of his sons.

Mongolian Grasslands

Genghis Khan left behind an army of more than 129,000 men 28,000 were given to his various brothers and his sons. Tolui, his youngest son, inherited more than 100,000 men. This force contained the bulk of the elite Mongolian cavalry.

Statue of Genghis Khan at his mausoleum, China

Ögedei Khan, was the third son of Genghis Khan and second Great Khan of the Mongol Empire, succeeding his father. He continued the expansion of the empire that his father had begun, and was a world figure when the Mongol Empire reached its farthest extent west and south during the Mongol invasions of Europe and East Asia. Like all of Genghis' primary sons, he participated extensively in conquests in China, Iran, and Central Asia.



Coronation of Ögedei in 1229. Rashid al-Din, early 14th century

Among his first actions, Ögedei sent troops to subjugate the Bashkirs, Bulgars, and other nations in the Kipchak-controlled steppes. In the east, Ögedei's armies re-established Mongol authority in Manchuria, crushing the Eastern Xia regime. In 1230, the great khan personally led his army in the campaign against the Jin dynasty (China). Ögedei's general Subutai captured the capital of Emperor Wanyan Shouxu in the siege of Kaifeng in 1232.

General Subutai - Medieval Chinese Drawing

The Jin dynasty collapsed in 1234 when the Mongols captured Caizhou, the town where Emperor Wanyan Shouxu had fled. In 1234, three armies commanded by Ögedei's sons Kochu and Koten, as well as the Tangut general Chagan, invaded southern China. With the assistance of the Song dynasty, the Mongols finished off the Jin in 1234.

From 1235󈞒 Ögedei constructed a series of palaces and pavilions at stopping places in his annual nomadic route through central Mongolia. The first palace Wanangong was constructed by North Chinese artisans. The Emperor urged his relatives build residences nearby and settled the deported craftsmen from China near the site. The construction of the city, Karakorum (Хархорум), was finished in 1235, assigning different quarters to Islamic and North Chinese craftsmen, who competed to win Ögedei's favor.


Early Life and Succession

A 14th century CE portrait of Ogedei Khan, ruler of the Mongol Empire (r. 1229-1241 CE). Paint and ink on silk. (National Palace Museum, Taipei) / Wikimedia Commons

Ogedei was born, c. 1186 CE, the third son of Genghis Khan, the founder of the Mongol Empire. He had three brothers: Jochi, Chagatai (Chaghadai) and Tolui (Tului). Like them, Ogedei assisted his father on several military campaigns, notably against the Khwarazm Empire from 1219 to 1225 CE. Before he died of natural causes in 1227 CE, Genghis Khan had instructed that his empire be divided into four khanates with each of his sons ruling one of them (although Jochi would predecease his father in 1227 CE). Ogedei was selected to rule above his siblings as the Great Khan or ‘universal ruler’, a position he was formally awarded in 1228 CE at the khuriltai conference of Mongol tribal chiefs (which Ogedei at first refused but then accepted in 1229 CE). Genghis, meanwhile, was buried in secret in the vicinity of the sacred mountain Burkan Kuldun, and Ogedei sacrificed 40 slave girls and 40 horses to accompany his father into the next life.

Ogedei was a surprising choice for khan because he already had a reputation for often being drunk. He was chastised for his drinking by his brother Chagatai but, not being unaware of the problem, Ogedei did offer to have a supervisor check how much alcohol he drank and to limit the number of cups per day to a specified number. Ogedei then made sure he was always served his favourite tipple in very large cups. Neither had Ogedei shown any great particular promise as a military commander. He was, however, likeable and willing to take the advice of his more senior ministers and commanders, essential qualities in the complex web of Mongol clan politics. Most importantly of all, he was his father’s choice and Genghis Khan was now already seen as a deified spirit whose word was law. Thus, Tolui, who had been acting as regent, handed over the reins of government to Ogedei and a new era of Mongol rule began.


Ögedei Khan

Ögedei (1186-1241) was the third son of Genghis Khan and second Great Khan of the Mongol Empire, after his father. He continued to make his father's empire bigger. Like all of Genghis' sons, he helped to conquer Western China and Central Asia. Ögedei was thought to be his father's favorite son, ever since his childhood. As an adult, Ögedei was known to be persuasive in debates he was involved because he had a strong personality. Although less schooled than his father, and despite his drinking habits, he was intelligent and steady in character.

He was selected as the supreme khan in 1229 because of the kuriltai, the meeting for important leaders, was held after Genghis' death, but it was never doubted that Genghis wanted Ögedei to rule after him. During his reign, the Mongols ended the Jin Dynasty (in 1234) and fought against the Southern Song Empire. In 1235, under the khan's direct command, the Mongols began a war of conquest that would not end for forty-five years, and would result in the addition of all of China. Mongol armies established permanent control of Persia (commanded by Chormagan) and expanded westward under the command of Batu Khan to take over Russia.


Ogedei (1185 &ndash 1241) was Genghis Khan&rsquos third son and unexpected successor. His two older brothers, Jochi and Chagatai, were ahead of him in the line of succession but had developed a bitter enmity. Jochi claimed the right to inherit as eldest, but Chagatai countered that Jochi, whose parentage was questionable because their mother had been kidnapped by an enemy of Genghis in the year before Jochi&rsquos birth, was a bastard, making Chagatai the eldest true born son. When it became clear that the empire would descend into civil war if either inherited, Ogedei was selected as a compromise heir.

Realizing that he was not Genghis&rsquo military equal, Ogedei was open to wise counsel and, relying on capable subordinates, greatly expanded the frontiers of the Mongol Empire to its greatest southward and westward extents. From his capital in Mongolis, he directed simultaneous campaigns on multiple fronts separated by thousands of miles, relying on field generals acting independently within their theaters, but subject to Ogedei&rsquos orders, relayed via a swift horse relay courier network.

In the east, the Mongols continued the campaign against the Jin, in alliance with the Song Dynasty in southern China. Ogedei commanded in person until 1232, then returned to Mongolia, entrusting to subordinates the final mopping up operations, which terminated with the extinguishment of the Jin Dynasty in 1234. The Mongols then fell out with their Song allies, and a new campaign began against southern China. Simultaneously, Ogedei&rsquos Mongols invaded the Korean Peninsula and asserted Mongol suzerainty.

In the south, Ogedei&rsquos armies invaded India, marching into the Indus Valley and on to the Delhi Sultanate, occupying parts of today&rsquos Pakistan and the Punjab. Simultaneously, another Mongol army marched into and subdued Kashmir.

In the west, Ogedei&rsquos armies marched out of the recently conquered Khwarezm to subdue the remainder of today&rsquos Central Asia, overruninguing Khorasan, Afghanistan, Persia, and reaching Mespotomia. From there, they turned northward and conquered Armenia, Georgia, and the Caucasus region, then continued to reduce Russia to centuries of vassalage. Afterwards, they penetrated into Eastern Europe, capturing Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, and reaching the Adriatic Sea. The Mongol forces in Europe under Subutai were drawing plans to continue the advance into Italy and Central Europe, when news arrived of Ogedei&rsquos death, which necessitated a halt to the campaign and a return to Mongolia for the selection of a new Khan.


How does the Mongol invasion of Europe proceed if Ogedei Khan lives another 20 years?

Medieval walls of Bukhara
View attachment 567732
Medieval walls of the Russian towns had wooden walls on the top of the ramped earth
View attachment 567733
Stone fortifications of Poland and Hungary are mostly post-Mongolian (had been built between the Western Campaign and the 2nd raid). Prior to this in Poland they were mostly wood and earth construction.

But construction of the castles was not the major problem because most of them had been small and their garrisons tiny. In a big scale campaign of conquest there would be no need to take all or even most of them because garrison’s ability to project power was close to zero. BTW, territory of Caucasus was full of the stone castles and it’s conquest was not a big deal. The pattern of conquest was to take the big cities and to show an example: of a place surrendered without resistance, it was not destroyed and its population was spared. But resistance meant destruction and death. Usually, few impressive “examples” were enough for the people in the region to get an idea (offer to surrender was a standard initial step). Submission of each an every castle owner was not required as long as the local ruler (prince, count, whatever) submitted. The following procedure was standard everywhere: the local boss was acknowledging Khan’s supremacy (in European terms became his vassal), size of his tribute and military obligations was defined and the area was pretty much left alone.

This was different for the raids because they were exclusively about looting and the things of value had been in the fortified places.

this is what some 13th century castles look like

"Stone fortifications of Poland and Hungary are mostly post-Mongolian (had been built between the Western Campaign and the 2nd raid). Prior to this in Poland they were mostly wood and earth construction. "

it did have some like eztregom which citatel survived the attacks of batu

"BTW, territory of Caucasus was full of the stone castles and it’s conquest was not a big deal. "

i would not say full just a couple of dozen

Alexmilman

Now, as far as the plate armor is involved, in the XIII century the Mongols had the plate armor, European knights had been wearing mail. Magyars are irrelevant because they had been a light cavalry while the Mongols had both light and heavy armored cavalry with the barded horses and, unlike the Magyars, could fight successfully in the melee against the armored cavalry (which they demonstrated more than once in Europe). What they did have and their Western counterparts did not was a discipline, organization and ability to use a sophisticated tactics. The Mongols had an army (in a modern sense) while their opponents had the unstructured assemblies of the feudal bands not capable of a serious maneuvering on a battlefield and lacking a discipline. Basically, as soon as a band was deployed, operational control over it had been lost. At best, an “army” commander could hope to rally his bands but this was a matter of luck. A knight (or leader of a band) could decide that he did what the duty and honor required or to go to use some looting opportunity or decide that right now is not a good time for an attack and nothing could be done about that because even a king had a limited authority.

BTW, there were no armies consisting exclusively of the knights. A knight has a band of the followers with a cheaper and lighter armor and weaponry.

The longbows in the XIII were pretty much unknown outside England and even in England it became cultivated as a serious military weapon only by Edward I, aka after Mongolian Western campaign. The famous combined tactics of the archers backed up by the dismounted knights “debuted” on continent only at Crecy and was not there even at Falkirk. In other words, not there, yet, in 1240s and irrelevant in general because the weapon and tactics were strictly English. The crossbows did not help too much at Liegnitz and I’m not sure if they played a decisive role in any battle.

Goldensilver81

Motte-and-bailey constructions were rather primitive constructions and hardly comparable with the castles of Outremer or the fortifications like Alamut castle.
View attachment 567742

Now, as far as the plate armor is involved, in the XIII century the Mongols had the plate armor, European knights had been wearing mail. Magyars are irrelevant because they had been a light cavalry while the Mongols had both light and heavy armored cavalry with the barded horses and, unlike the Magyars, could fight successfully in the melee against the armored cavalry (which they demonstrated more than once in Europe). What they did have and their Western counterparts did not was a discipline, organization and ability to use a sophisticated tactics. The Mongols had an army (in a modern sense) while their opponents had the unstructured assemblies of the feudal bands not capable of a serious maneuvering on a battlefield and lacking a discipline. Basically, as soon as a band was deployed, operational control over it had been lost. At best, an “army” commander could hope to rally his bands but this was a matter of luck. A knight (or leader of a band) could decide that he did what the duty and honor required or to go to use some looting opportunity or decide that right now is not a good time for an attack and nothing could be done about that because even a king had a limited authority.

BTW, there were no armies consisting exclusively of the knights. A knight has a band of the followers with a cheaper and lighter armor and weaponry.

The longbows in the XIII were pretty much unknown outside England and even in England it became cultivated as a serious military weapon only by Edward I, aka after Mongolian Western campaign. The famous combined tactics of the archers backed up by the dismounted knights “debuted” on continent only at Crecy and was not there even at Falkirk. In other words, not there, yet, in 1240s and irrelevant in general because the weapon and tactics were strictly English. The crossbows did not help too much at Liegnitz and I’m not sure if they played a decisive role in any battle.

Castles where in the north of italy not much different that the rest of the hre

Mongols has plate armour wut
No one had plate armour yet the closest thing was the European coat of plates

see this for more information of mongol armour

True a comparison of the magyars is not 100% accurate.

The lancers being used . no they used clever tactics because head charges of Mongolian lancers vs knights is borderline suicidal see legntiza where they separated the cavarly from the infantry first and laid a trap to distract them .

The crossbows where kinda of effictive they where not used to much but when batu tried to cross the bridge the crossbowmen made him retreat he had to get the stone throwers to kick them out .
*The mongols had better sophistication "
True and not true the mongols had better training as whole but they where not these worker ants that did everything according to plan
Rifts existed since Genghis death see how the princes began to squable with batu ans flat out left or how batu conflicted with subotai over sieges while not as divided as European armies sings

The tactician does change a lot of things for example Bela did not fall for the usual Mongol tricks but he was to warry he could have killed the mongols had he not hesistated they where on a flat plain with river in the back that negates most of their advantages and the Mongolian lancer would not meelle fights against knights ( even though there where few ) but he hesisted even so when he attacked batu was pinned and had it not been for subotia most of the Mongolian force .

Heavy cavarly armies with terrian have defeated the mongols the mamelukes where not that different to their European counterparts on an elite heavy cavarly unit with the rest as support but they after their victory adapted to Mongol attacks Europe would have an easier time with the do to the added distance more natural barriers castles etc

Alexmilman

you seem to confuse city with forts most kharezem and rus forts where rammed earth and wood
this is what their " castles would have been like "
View attachment 567738

this is what some 13th century castles look like

"Stone fortifications of Poland and Hungary are mostly post-Mongolian (had been built between the Western Campaign and the 2nd raid). Prior to this in Poland they were mostly wood and earth construction. "

it did have some like eztregom which citatel survived the attacks of batu

"BTW, territory of Caucasus was full of the stone castles and it’s conquest was not a big deal. "

i would not say full just a couple of dozen
View attachment 567746
and yes few keeps no moat no 2 layers of walls , no citatel , few towers , no real keep , few muder holes ,no real ramparts ,not big enough to have their own trebutches to counter attack few machicolations
yeah no wonder why they did not change things. heck a poor 12th century castle has better defense than this 13th georgian one.

I’m not confusing castles with the fortified cities and was talking about the cities in Russia and CA and the primitive modern reenactment replica of I have no idea what is hardly illustration of anything. There is no information about the Mongols spending any time in Central Russia taking the “forts” so it makes sense to talk only about the fortified cities.

It is well-known that most of the stone castles of Hungary are built after Mongolian invasion. “Most” does not mean “all” so your example is hardly relevant. “The territory of medieval Hungary was very rich in castles. Castles served as the centers of royal counties, and they were also the centers of noble estates. The first large wave of castle-building took place during the second half of the 13th century, after the disastrous Mongol invasion (1241). It became clear at that time that only a strongly fortified stone castle can stop invaders.” https://jekely.blogspot.com/2010/09/castles-in-medieval-hungary.html

I doubt very much that the “forts” of the Central Asia had been built of wood: not too much of it is available. Then, again, AFAIK, equivalents if the feudal castles were not typical for the CA so it makes sense to talk about the fortified cities.

Number of the fortresses in Georgia is definitely well over couple dozens and the main problem with Ananuri fortress on your photo is that only part of it survived and, anyway, the shot is made under unfortunate angle: it is built on steep hill which makes comment about the moat rather irrelevant. It consists of two castles connected by a curtain wall. The lower castle is in the ruins. Other “complaints” are plain silly: most of the European castles of the XIII century did not have double walls, etc.

Alexmilman

Castles where in the north of italy not much different that the rest of the hre

Mongols has plate armour wut
No one had plate armour yet the closest thing was the European coat of plates

see this for more information of mongol armour

True a comparison of the magyars is not 100% accurate.

The lancers being used . no they used clever tactics because head charges of Mongolian lancers vs knights is borderline suicidal see legntiza where they separated the cavarly from the infantry first and laid a trap to distract them .

The crossbows where kinda of effictive they where not used to much but when batu tried to cross the bridge the crossbowmen made him retreat he had to get the stone throwers to kick them out .
*The mongols had better sophistication "
True and not true the mongols had better training as whole but they where not these worker ants that did everything according to plan
Rifts existed since Genghis death see how the princes began to squable with batu ans flat out left or how batu conflicted with subotai over sieges while not as divided as European armies sings

The tactician does change a lot of things for example Bela did not fall for the usual Mongol tricks but he was to warry he could have killed the mongols had he not hesistated they where on a flat plain with river in the back that negates most of their advantages and the Mongolian lancer would not meelle fights against knights ( even though there where few ) but he hesisted even so when he attacked batu was pinned and had it not been for subotia most of the Mongolian force .

Heavy cavarly armies with terrian have defeated the mongols the mamelukes where not that different to their European counterparts on an elite heavy cavarly unit with the rest as support but they after their victory adapted to Mongol attacks Europe would have an easier time with the do to the added distance more natural barriers castles etc

In the mid XIII century Europeans had been wearing mail, not plate. Thanks for the video but I don’t need it and its primitive pictures. The Mongols had been using both cuirasses (metal or boiled leather) or laminar armor.
The rifts between the Mongolian princes had nothing to do with their tactical abilities or discipline during the campaign.
The Mamelukes won with a very heavy numeric advantage and they were not anything like the contemporary European knights: they had been trained as an army and did not consist (in XIII) of the independent feudal bands.
The long knightly lances belong to the later period and the Mongols had lances as well.
Your depiction of the battle of Sayo is rather confused.
The XIII century Europe did not have “elite cavalry units”. Terminology is anachronistic and misleading. It had feudal bands with no training of maneuvers outside the band and rather relaxed notion of a discipline. The Mongols had a regular army.
What “Europe” (*) would do is not important because the Mongols would not be there for any long term.

________
(*) FYI, Europe starts at Ural so what you are talking about is Western and Central Europe because Eastern Europe was conquered by the Mongols.

Goldensilver81

I’m not confusing castles with the fortified cities and was talking about the cities in Russia and CA and the primitive modern reenactment replica of I have no idea what is hardly illustration of anything. There is no information about the Mongols spending any time in Central Russia taking the “forts” so it makes sense to talk only about the fortified cities.

It is well-known that most of the stone castles of Hungary are built after Mongolian invasion. “Most” does not mean “all” so your example is hardly relevant. “The territory of medieval Hungary was very rich in castles. Castles served as the centers of royal counties, and they were also the centers of noble estates. The first large wave of castle-building took place during the second half of the 13th century, after the disastrous Mongol invasion (1241). It became clear at that time that only a strongly fortified stone castle can stop invaders.” https://jekely.blogspot.com/2010/09/castles-in-medieval-hungary.html

I doubt very much that the “forts” of the Central Asia had been built of wood: not too much of it is available. Then, again, AFAIK, equivalents if the feudal castles were not typical for the CA so it makes sense to talk about the fortified cities.

Number of the fortresses in Georgia is definitely well over couple dozens and the main problem with Ananuri fortress on your photo is that only part of it survived and, anyway, the shot is made under unfortunate angle: it is built on steep hill which makes comment about the moat rather irrelevant. It consists of two castles connected by a curtain wall. The lower castle is in the ruins. Other “complaints” are plain silly: most of the European castles of the XIII century did not have double walls, etc.
View attachment 567751
When you are building fortresses in the mountains, you are taking advantage of terrain as above and below.
View attachment 567756

I agree with most but like I said Rus and Persian forts where ramped Earth and wood I think one was more common

The first castles where built in Georgia few decades proior to the invasion sure they had much more forts but not castles

"Other complains are silly" yes not having defensive works that make the invader force harder to take the castle are silly despite that they are things designed to grind any assulting force and not making you a sitting duck as you can use your own siege engines to fire back is a crazy motion also true not all castles has it but Concentric castles were widely copied across Europe since the 12th century

Lady Visenya

Goldensilver81

In the mid XIII century Europeans had been wearing mail, not plate.
The rifts between the Mongolian princes had nothing to do with their tactical abilities or discipline during the campaign.
The Mamelukes won with a very heavy numeric advantage and they were not anything like the contemporary European knights: they had been trained as an army and did not consist (in XIII) of the independent feudal bands.
The long knightly lances belong to the later period and the Mongols had lances as well.
Your depiction of the battle of Sayo is rather confused.
The XIII century Europe did not have “elite cavalry units”. Terminology is anachronistic and misleading. It had feudal bands with no training of maneuvers outside the band and rather relaxed notion of a discipline. The Mongols had a regular army.
What “Europe” (*) would do is not important because the Mongols would not be there for any long term.

________
(*) FYI, Europe starts at Ural so what you are talking about is Western and Central Europe because Eastern Europe was conquered by the Mongols.

"Thanks for the video but I don’t need it and its primitive pictures. The Mongols had been using both cuirasses (metal or boiled leather) or laminar armor. "

That's not plate Armour and that's what the video mentioned and more so I would recommend watching it

The mamelukes had about less than 20% to 50% more troops at ainjaut homs was 3 to 1 in favor of the mamelukes
The mongols outnumbered the mamelukes at second homs
( All mameluke victories )
And third homs being a Mongolian victory when they outnumbered the mamelukes any where from 2 to nearly 4
So yeah no the mamelukes ( with the exception of first homs wich was a minor battle ) never outnumbered the mongols by much the mongols had been outnbered 4 to 1 in the past and still manged to win

2)the mamelukes where composed of well the mamelukes and specialized infantry and the rest being others
Not to different from Knights men at arms and the resr of the army .

3) like I said it all depended on the commander it seems you think all knight and Lord's where idiots who thinked charge was the only way of attack and whole it is true not all where like that there are examples of a king or Lord keeping his subordinates under control and out manuvering his enemy
Sure for the mongols this was standard practice and not for European armies that is true .

And yes I do know there where Mongolian lancer I did mentioned them but like I said the knight was better equipped than a Mongolian lancer had better armour and stronger horse head to head confrenation is a no no

And please do tell how I have a wierd telling of the battle of mohi
Also the princes where commanders left
There conflicted sources if they took parts of their forces with them or not either way I also mentioned how batu went to sack cities and some of them failing especially in Croatia where nothing was achivied despite subotai wanting to attack Vienna

Alexmilman

I agree with most but like I said Rus and Persian forts where ramped Earth and wood I think one was more common

The first castles where built in Georgia few decades proior to the invasion sure they had much more forts but not castles

"Other complains are silly" yes not having defensive works that make the invader force harder to take the castle are silly despite that they are things designed to grind any assulting force and not making you a sitting duck as you can use your own siege engines to fire back is a crazy motion also true not all castles has it but Concentric castles were widely copied across Europe since the 12th century

Please explain a principal difference between “fort” and “castle” from a besieger’s perspective.

The “defensive works” are the part of a whole defense and if you have a fortification built on a high steep rock or a hill or on an island you do not necessarily need to have a moat or a double wall. Not to mention that the castles of Western Europe had been routinely taken and that most of them were much more primitive than the few surviving big ones by a simple reason: the full enchilada was too expensive for a minor feudal to afford.

This being said, you are missing two main points:

1. There was a big difference between the conquest and raid mode of the Mongolian (and not only, see the English chevauchees during the 100YW) operations. The conquest required submission of a territory which meant taking the major cities and castles and either exterminating the local leadership (and replacing it either with the Mongols or with their appointees ) or forcing it to submit (as in Georgia, Galitz, etc.). In that mode time was not a factor: if needed, the siege could last for few months as was, for example, the case with Ismailia fortress of Girdkuh in Ismailite state. In a meantime the Mongols would be attacking the less defended cities and fortresses massacring the population and devastating the countryside. Offer to submit would be still hanging as a carrot while the conquest was going on. Schema worked as often as not or, with a death of a stubborn ruler, a more compliant replacement could be found. The raid was based upon the speed and coordination. The well-fortified resisting places would be either bypassed altogether or their siege would be abandoned if it did not look promising. The important thing was too loot I’ll-defended or undefended places and move forward (and then getting back safely). Mongolian Western campaign was a raid by its goal and pattern so the prolonged sieges and submission of a territory were not a goal. The Mongols bypassed even some fortified cities in Galitz.

2. Termin “Mongols” is misleading. While their “westward” operations all the way to the Western campaign were “Mongolian” in the terms of an army organization and quality, the later operations in Europe and Iraq were “Mongolian” mostly by name. After the Western campaign Batu was left with 4,000 Mongols (the same goes for Nogai) and had to do extensive recruiting among his newly-conquered subjects, Polovtsy, Bulgars of Volga, etc. It is some kind of a miracle that within a very short time he managed to build an army feared by the neighbors but there is no reason whatsoever to expect that these troops were of the same quality as the Mongolian veterans of the time of conquest or even had the same weapons and armor. Polovtsy, prior to the conquest, were a typical light unarmored archers whom their Russian neighbors did not consider a serious opponent (hence the miscalculation during Kalka campaign: the Mongols had been evaluated as Polovtsy). Not surprisingly, the identification changed from “Mongols” to “Tatars”. The Chinese engineers were not available anymore and had to be replaced with the local specialists, the military organization was gradually going back to the tribal principle and the raiding became a prevalent style of a warfare.

The confusion is spreading further: Hulagu troops are defined as “Mongols” but a big part of his army were the contingents borrowed by Batu who were anything but the Mongols. To a great degree these contingents had been Muslims who, after the sack of Baghdad, either went home or, with Berke approval, defected to the Mamelukes. So, what Hulagu ended up with was not necessarily a “Mongolian army” not just ethnically but by weaponry and discipline.


In 1230 Ogedei Khan dispatched an army of 30,000 under the command of Chromagen to fight the Muslims in the West. they had been growing restive since Genghis Khan had left their territories in 1225. First and foremost, the Mongols deals with Prince Jalal ad-Din, the son of the late Shah Muhammad of the Khwarazm Empire, who had stirred up more considerable mischief upon his return from India. The campaign father unfolded to bring Persia, Armenia, and Georgia to their knees and, by passing over the Caucasus, reached the heart of Europe. Unaware of the religious tolerance prescribed by Genghis yasaq, the Armenian king tried hard to make the best of the Mongols’ punitive operation in the lands of the Khwarazm Empire and to form an alliance of Christian and Mongols against his ultimate enemies the Muslims. Meanwhile, another Mongol army, which had been advancing northward entered central Europe and began destroying Christian nations by sword and fire.


Índice

Oguedai nasceu em 1185 e era filho de Gengis Khan (r. 1206–1227 ), o fundador do Império Mongol. Em 1229, sucedeu o seu irmão Tolui Cã (r. 1227–1229 ) como cã, mas adotaria o título de grão-cã. Estabeleceu a sua base no rio Orcom, onde fundou Caracórum. Tal como seu pai, conduziu várias campanhas simultaneamente ao usar vários generais que agiram independentemente, mas estiveram sujeitos a suas ordens. No Oriente, atacou o nortista Império Jim (1115–1234 ) com ajuda do sulista Império Songue (960–1279 ), que desejava recuperar territórios perdidos. A aliança permitiu a captura da capital Jim de Caifengue em 1234. A pedido de Ielu Chucai, não arrasou o norte da China à mongol, e com isso preservou a riqueza e habilidade dos habitantes. [ 3 ]

No Ocidente, Oguedai enviou exércitos ao planalto Iraniano, Iraque Árabe (sul da Mesopotâmia) e Rússia de Quieve. Em 1240, após o Saque de Quieve, a resistência russa ruiu. Em 1241, os mongóis derrotaram os forças do Reino da Polônia e Sacro Império Romano-Germânico na Batalha de Legnica e então o Reino da Hungria na Batalha de Mohi. Isso lhes permitiu atravessar o território da Hungria e alcançar o mar Adriático. Essa campanha, no entanto, foi interrompida pela morte de Oguedai devido a problemas de alcoolismo. [ 3 ] A evidência dendrocronológica tem apontado, por sua vez, que o inverno de 1241-42 na Hungria foi particularmente rigoroso, levando ao fim da expedição. [ 4 ] Seja como for, a viúva de Oguedai, Toreguene, assumiu o papel de regente até 1246, quando cedeu o trono a seu filho mais velho Guiuque Cã. [ 3 ]

As fontes contemporâneas descreveram Oguedai como homem severo e enérgico, amante de bebedeiras e lascívia. [ 3 ]


Ögödei

Ögödei eller Ogodai, [ 5 ] född 1186, död 1241, var Djingis Khans tredje son och kom att efterträda honom som khan över mongolväldet. Under Ögedeis ledning fortsatte expansionen i Kina genom erövring av Jin- och Songrikena samt erövringen av nuvarande Ryssland och Europa.

Efter Djings khans död 1227 blev Ögödei korad till hans andra efterträdare vid ett 1229 års kurultai med den mongoliska aristokratin. Ögödei styrde mongolväldet från 1229 fram till sin död 1241. För att särskilja sig från andra innehavare av titeln lät han utropa sig till "storkhan" (qaγan). Ögedei inledde sin regering med att bedriva militärkampanjer i Sichuan 1231-32 och fullbordade erövringen av Jinriket 1233-34, vilket gjorde att norra Kina befann sig under mongoliskt välde. En tydlig skillnaden mellan Ögödeis krigföring och hans far Djingis khan var att Ögödei attackerade på många olika fronter samtidigt. [ 7 ]

På grund av en hjärtsjukdom höll han sig i sitt palats medan hans generaler erövrade nya länder. Den främste generalen, Tsubotai ledde ett fälttåg med 5-6 tumener, ca 50𧄀 krigare. De erövrade delar av Ryssland, bland annat Moskva och fortsatte västerut mot Europa. Mongolerna hade tagit över Ungern, Polen och Ukraina och var vid gränsen till Tyskland. De hade även spioner så lång bort som Frankrike och Italien. Tsubodais mål var att förinta allt i sin väg ända fram till havet. Sedan dog Ögödei. Hans död räknas som betydelsefull eftersom hela Europas utveckling annars kunde varit annorlunda. Det fanns i stort sett inget motstånd kvar fram till Atlanten. Den större franska armén, en tempelriddarorden, hade redan krossats. För att förhindra att det blev Tjagatai som blev gurkhan (storkhan) var Tsubodais armé tvungen att vända tillbaka och erövringen upphörde.


Watch the video: Ogeday,.stories (August 2022).